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[Music]

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um this episode is skeptical

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show about self-soothing she needs to

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learn how to self-soo she's what

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herself let's just sing a song We'll

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sing a song

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[Music]

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maybe she's hungry I'm gonna feed her hi

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come on let's go eat come on

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and how if it was never really a good

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idea in child rooming it probably isn't

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a good truth seeking slash personal

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development strategy either

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Sean Carroll is writing books about the

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meaning of life he's a complete

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materialist Sam Harris is is a guru now

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right I mean he's a pop culture sort of

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Guru but people come to him with answers

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about the meaning of life and what is it

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if you're a physicalist you can't really

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acknowledge morality you can't really

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acknowledge aesthetic quality you can't

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really acknowledge literature art you

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can't acknowledge the meaning of life I

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mean it's ruled out in advance

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I don't want to change my beliefs to

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whatever extent my life is livable it

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rests on the fact that I'm constantly

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seeking to be soothed to be comforted by

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that voice inside my head manipulated in

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a way that makes me feel okay and the

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last thing I want to do is take that

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leap and say there's something more that

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first clip was from the movie Life as We

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Know It And the second was from our

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guest Dr Richard grego who was nice

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enough to join me on this kind of trip

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true Memory Lane rebooted by some new

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stuff that's come out rich is a terrific

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guy and a great guest to the show really

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really smart appreciate what he brings

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to this conversation I hope you enjoy it

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okay Dr Rich grego is back rich is

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Professor philosophy and cultural

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history Florida State College

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Jacksonville

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and a really really cool friend of the

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show

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so rich emailed me about a month ago and

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what what ensued after that was I think

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a really cool conversation that we had

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that

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kind of morphed into this show maybe

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Rich you want to tell folks about uh

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this guy who you interviewed and then I

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subsequently interviewed on skeptico and

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then we'll tell them about this new book

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that he has out

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okay sure I interviewed Alexander Maria

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Alameda or who's a really uh impressive

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I at least I find him very impressive

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guys what you really you can tell me

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what you think Alex but for me he's what

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you really are looking for in a great

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research scientist

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um especially when it comes to a

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controversial issue

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um that

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other other scientists tend to judge

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unfairly

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um so and and again he's been a

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near-death researcher for a long time as

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you said I interviewed him for the for

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skeptical actually at a long time a

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while ago now at the American

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Psychological Association conference I

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believe in Orlando he was doing a panel

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discussion with several other

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leading lights since including I think

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Stanley kripner

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and another guy philosopher can't

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remember that's great so let me just

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interject to put an exclamation point on

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what you said so totally legit guy he's

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going to apa the biggest conference for

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psychologists he's a medical doctor and

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he happens in a very kind of open

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Brazilian way where they're not kind of

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closed down to some of this

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crazy materialism he's like hey there's

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a lot of stuff going on in the world you

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know I mean we have John of God you know

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here in our backyard we have other

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spiritual stuff going on so I need to go

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out and Observe and Report as a doctor

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and as somebody who publishes in

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peer-reviewed papers like you're saying

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this is what I do baby I do science so

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you interviewed him it was really great

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and then he came out with another book I

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interviewed him really great and then

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tell me about this book that he has that

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you pinged me on in your email

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yeah well when I originally interviewed

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him at the conference it was in regard

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to a book that he had done in

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conjunction with a number of other

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really interesting

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um people in that field called frontiers

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of the mind-body relationship I believe

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and that's what their panel was about

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um however I I just noticed

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um because I happen to be reviewing a

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book for Springer press for somebody

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else that he had a book out a new

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relatively new I think it came out last

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year called the science of life after

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death

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um which is just what it's called about

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it's and it's very focused it's a great

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book very brief under 100 Pages where he

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really summarizes the latest a lot of

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the latest research and more importantly

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it's both its implications and the

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reasons why the scientific Community

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still

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has not for whatever reason uh chosen to

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take it seriously well buddy that's

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exactly what we're going to talk about

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today because you know you so you ping

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me on that and then I said great let's

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get him back on let's talk about this

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and then the more we talked we're like

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you know we don't really want to talk to

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him about this because in a way he's a

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fantastic guy and I love talking to him

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but in a way it gets in the it misses

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the point this is a check the box kind

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of book of course Consciousness survives

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death the the problem is the way that

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we've uh been trained to understand this

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very limited idea of Consciousness and

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then how it plays out in these questions

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of

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survival so where I want to shift it and

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we'll shift it right away to maybe a

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video

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and I was looking you know who do we

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want to talk about this and then I I

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kind of thought what pop to mine is the

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Antichrist of Neuroscience and afterlife

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Dr Sam Harris now you know the

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interesting thing about Sam Harris is

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that I point out to people is I have a

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video clip I'm going to play in just a

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minute and it's a few years old but it's

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great because it's really where he lives

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and it's where he lives to this day but

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if you're just perusing the power you're

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after you're not gonna find that you're

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gonna find like this clip I'm playing

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here from Joe Rogan or you're going to

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find Clips like this one from the very

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excellent Lex Friedman who is totally

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waffling on this issue too totally

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misses the point but you know he's going

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to ask him directly Sam what's the

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meaning of life get up without any

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explanation what is the meaning of life

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and I'll I'll spare you because he goes

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on 10 minutes and he doesn't answer it

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of course he doesn't answer it and the

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reason relates back to what we're going

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to talk about today versus almeida's

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book and this whole topic of Survival Of

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Consciousness and the best way I think

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for us to get there is for me to play a

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another Sam Harris clip the best Sam

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Harris Club let me play that science is

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not in in principle committed to the

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idea that there's no afterlife or that

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the the mind is identical to the brain

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right or that materialism is true

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science is completely open to whatever

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in fact is true and if it's true that

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the Consciousness is being run like

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software on the brain and can by virtue

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of ectoplasm or something else we don't

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understand can be dissociated from the

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brain of death

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that would be part of our growing

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scientific understanding of the world if

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we could Discover it now and there's

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there are ways we could in fact discover

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that if it were true the problem is

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there are very good reasons to think

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it's not true and we know this from now

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150 years of Neurology where you damage

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areas of the brain and faculties are

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lost and they're clearly it's not that

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everyone with brain damage is perf has

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their soul perfectly intact they just

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can't get the words out this is that you

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everything about your mind can be

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damaged by damaging the brain and what

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we're being asked to consider is that

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you damage one part of the brain and the

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mind something about the mind and

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subjectivity is lost you damage another

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and and yet more is lost and yet if you

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damage the whole thing at death

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we can rise off the brain with all our

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faculties intact recognizing grandma and

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speaking English

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okay so that's great and you got all

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that right Rich that all came through

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sure okay the million things we can talk

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about and this is kind of old school

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skeptical stuff but we're going to bring

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it up to date because it's really really

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I think current particularly with what

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we've gone through in the last year in

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terms of what it means to surrender

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science to the quote-unquote authorities

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to the expert to the we are science

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we'll tell you what science is and the

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first thing I point out and I want you

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to comment on this because in particular

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Rich what's great about talking to you

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is you have this strong philosophy

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background and you think like a

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philosopher but you also think like a

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scientist we would expect the same from

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Dr Sam Harris and let's by the way not

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forget that his brand is atheist that is

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his brand right so he's you got to

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remember he's not going to switch his

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position because he's built this kind of

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brand and his other brand is neural

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science he's a neuroscientist right so

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those are the two things but right off

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the bat what does he do with science

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what does he say about science one he

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misses the basic skeptical 101. science

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is a method it's not a position

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statement what does he say at the

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beginning science says this science is

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this I am science yeah do you want to

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just even build off of that comment on

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that

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yeah I don't know I mean you know I tend

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to you know a cultural historian too I

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just tend to look at that view of

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science now and maybe the

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institutionalization of it like that as

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similar to the you know the church and

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scholasticism in the 500 years ago um

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it's it's sort of the the you know where

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they and it's easy for us to look at it

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that way because we can all look back

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500 years and be critical of the of the

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Catholic church in the 1500s

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um and Scholastic philosophy and the

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Scholastic world view as being reductive

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and and

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um and controlling and domineering and

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authoritarian and monolithic and I think

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that's Sam Harris represents that Trend

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now and I think in science today

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scientism being the scholasticism of the

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modern era

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um so you haven't an institution that

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that now is desperate to control in a

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very reductive way this really reductive

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narrative about what real all reality is

276
00:11:24,170 --> 00:11:22,380
and what you're allowed to admit what

277
00:11:25,730 --> 00:11:24,180
you're allowed to say or not say or what

278
00:11:29,090 --> 00:11:25,740
will allow what you're allowed to

279
00:11:30,590 --> 00:11:29,100
investigate for that matter but well I I

280
00:11:32,810 --> 00:11:30,600
think we also got to point out that he

281
00:11:35,269 --> 00:11:32,820
does it in a very uh subtle way here and

282
00:11:38,389 --> 00:11:35,279
again this is a few years old and his

283
00:11:40,610 --> 00:11:38,399
new stick is even more smooth and has

284
00:11:43,069 --> 00:11:40,620
these you know very meditative kind of

285
00:11:44,449 --> 00:11:43,079
things but but he's sliding off of I

286
00:11:47,690 --> 00:11:44,459
really want to drill into the science

287
00:11:50,569 --> 00:11:47,700
thing because number one he says science

288
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:50,579
doesn't say this science and he equates

289
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:53,040
science with materialism he doesn't he

290
00:11:57,170 --> 00:11:54,959
doesn't even introduce the basics of

291
00:12:00,170 --> 00:11:57,180
science is what we're going to go out

292
00:12:02,449 --> 00:12:00,180
and observe we are going to observe the

293
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:02,459
world he seems to be completely

294
00:12:06,650 --> 00:12:04,079
bypassing

295
00:12:09,290 --> 00:12:06,660
what we were talking about in the book

296
00:12:12,170 --> 00:12:09,300
with Almeida which is anyone can go out

297
00:12:14,509 --> 00:12:12,180
and say gee we've observed a lot of

298
00:12:17,090 --> 00:12:14,519
cases where Consciousness seems to

299
00:12:18,829 --> 00:12:17,100
survive death is he referencing any of

300
00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:18,839
those is he referencing near-death

301
00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:21,200
experience after death communication

302
00:12:27,290 --> 00:12:24,180
medium communication is he referencing

303
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:27,300
any Out of Body Experience reincarnation

304
00:12:32,930 --> 00:12:30,720
these are all observed phenomena that we

305
00:12:34,850 --> 00:12:32,940
can acknowledge at least because people

306
00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:34,860
are doing research on him and Publishing

307
00:12:39,069 --> 00:12:37,260
peer-reviewed papers on them yeah and he

308
00:12:41,449 --> 00:12:39,079
could say there are all these

309
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:41,459
observations out there that we need to

310
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:43,200
somehow wrap our arms around and figure

311
00:12:47,629 --> 00:12:46,079
out he's he's not doing any of that go

312
00:12:49,490 --> 00:12:47,639
back and listen carefully to what he

313
00:12:51,949 --> 00:12:49,500
said and this is philosophy right

314
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:51,959
because what he is doing is taking a

315
00:12:56,569 --> 00:12:54,480
philosophical approach he's not talking

316
00:12:59,329 --> 00:12:56,579
about observed evidence or

317
00:13:01,370 --> 00:12:59,339
experimentation falsification he's

318
00:13:04,370 --> 00:13:01,380
saying I'm going to make an inference

319
00:13:06,110 --> 00:13:04,380
here about if you know the brain is

320
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:06,120
damaged do your memory is damaged

321
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:07,920
therefore if the whole brain is damaged

322
00:13:13,310 --> 00:13:10,320
then there couldn't possibly it's like

323
00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:13,320
oh what about what about the beta what

324
00:13:17,569 --> 00:13:15,839
about the data over here any thoughts on

325
00:13:19,610 --> 00:13:17,579
that yeah which is supposed to be what

326
00:13:22,970 --> 00:13:19,620
science is all about right I mean and

327
00:13:24,590 --> 00:13:22,980
and and in fact the it seems to me

328
00:13:26,930 --> 00:13:24,600
especially in terms of near-death

329
00:13:29,329 --> 00:13:26,940
experience the majority of scientists

330
00:13:30,829 --> 00:13:29,339
who actually go out and do what you're

331
00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:30,839
prescribing

332
00:13:36,129 --> 00:13:33,420
find EX you know we their conclusions

333
00:13:39,170 --> 00:13:36,139
are exactly the opposite of Sam Harris

334
00:13:42,590 --> 00:13:39,180
as well as ever as well as most of the

335
00:13:44,810 --> 00:13:42,600
other sort of con I don't know what nde

336
00:13:45,710 --> 00:13:44,820
debunkers if that's the right word I

337
00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:45,720
don't know

338
00:13:49,850 --> 00:13:48,180
um but and and you being from as

339
00:13:51,710 --> 00:13:49,860
familiar with the literature as you are

340
00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:51,720
in fact probably much more than than

341
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:54,720
obviously much more than a Sam Harris

342
00:13:59,449 --> 00:13:57,360
um I'm sure you can attest to that are

343
00:14:03,590 --> 00:13:59,459
there are there that many people who've

344
00:14:06,829 --> 00:14:03,600
really researched the phenomenon who

345
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:06,839
come to the conclusion that

346
00:14:10,430 --> 00:14:09,120
you know all these dismissive any of

347
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:10,440
these dismissive conclusions it's

348
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:13,440
hypoxia it's it's an illusion it's you

349
00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:16,079
know whatever is that the case I don't

350
00:14:20,930 --> 00:14:18,300
think so is it yeah no that's that's not

351
00:14:23,269 --> 00:14:20,940
on the table and as you and I are are

352
00:14:27,290 --> 00:14:23,279
kind of alluding to here you know the

353
00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:27,300
next level of this is to one really hone

354
00:14:33,170 --> 00:14:30,720
in on what the topic is because the

355
00:14:37,009 --> 00:14:33,180
topic is really about Consciousness yes

356
00:14:39,470 --> 00:14:37,019
and survival is just the survival of

357
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:39,480
Consciousness is really just the

358
00:14:43,550 --> 00:14:41,519
ultimate test it's the ultimate test

359
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:43,560
right because we can bat around you know

360
00:14:48,410 --> 00:14:45,600
the observer effect and all this other

361
00:14:51,470 --> 00:14:48,420
stuff yeah but when you say hey man that

362
00:14:53,389 --> 00:14:51,480
dude died and he was in a body bag and

363
00:14:57,170 --> 00:14:53,399
yet he was able to observe what was

364
00:14:59,150 --> 00:14:57,180
going on and report it in detail in a

365
00:15:00,530 --> 00:14:59,160
way that we have other eyewitnesses that

366
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:00,540
say that well how would you know that

367
00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:03,120
how would that so we get from a

368
00:15:06,410 --> 00:15:04,980
near-death experience standpoint we get

369
00:15:07,790 --> 00:15:06,420
there but as a lot of other people have

370
00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:07,800
pointed out you get there a number of

371
00:15:11,210 --> 00:15:09,600
other ways you go to University of

372
00:15:14,030 --> 00:15:11,220
Virginia and get all that reincarnation

373
00:15:16,430 --> 00:15:14,040
research and it's just you know you

374
00:15:20,329 --> 00:15:16,440
can't you can't just sidestep well you

375
00:15:25,310 --> 00:15:20,339
can sidestep it but ultimately the

376
00:15:28,069 --> 00:15:25,320
reason why science can't swallow this

377
00:15:30,889 --> 00:15:28,079
is because as it relates to

378
00:15:32,750 --> 00:15:30,899
Consciousness and the position they've

379
00:15:35,689 --> 00:15:32,760
taken and this will be a little bit of a

380
00:15:38,449 --> 00:15:35,699
trip down memory lane but this is kind

381
00:15:41,150 --> 00:15:38,459
of fun for me to remind folks what's

382
00:15:42,829 --> 00:15:41,160
really behind the Sam Harris kind of

383
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:42,839
mindset and now what's really kind of

384
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:43,920
this

385
00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:46,320
limited hangout kind of thing in a way

386
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:48,180
when he talks about you know he seemed

387
00:15:53,329 --> 00:15:51,600
meaning of life and meditation and you

388
00:15:56,269 --> 00:15:53,339
know what are you really and all this

389
00:15:58,850 --> 00:15:56,279
stuff hey bro from a science standpoint

390
00:16:01,310 --> 00:15:58,860
it comes down to one thing it comes down

391
00:16:03,230 --> 00:16:01,320
to Consciousness yeah okay let me play

392
00:16:05,509 --> 00:16:03,240
this clip

393
00:16:07,550 --> 00:16:05,519
but you can say something about the

394
00:16:10,129 --> 00:16:07,560
question which you really would wish to

395
00:16:12,490 --> 00:16:10,139
know the answer to right and I mean for

396
00:16:18,110 --> 00:16:12,500
me it would be what what's Consciousness

397
00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:21,430
Scott Richie you know what I think

398
00:16:27,949 --> 00:16:24,959
but what I think on this is uh

399
00:16:31,610 --> 00:16:27,959
Consciousness has kind of baffled us for

400
00:16:33,650 --> 00:16:31,620
a while okay and evidence that we

401
00:16:37,490 --> 00:16:33,660
haven't a clue about what Consciousness

402
00:16:39,230 --> 00:16:37,500
is is drawn from the in from the fact of

403
00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:39,240
how many books are published on the

404
00:16:45,050 --> 00:16:41,519
topic right we're not really continuing

405
00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:45,060
to publish books not really on like

406
00:16:51,170 --> 00:16:48,420
Newtonian physics it's done all right so

407
00:16:52,910 --> 00:16:51,180
so the fact that people keep publishing

408
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,920
books on Consciousness is the evidence

409
00:16:56,030 --> 00:16:54,240
we don't know anything about it because

410
00:16:58,730 --> 00:16:56,040
if we knew all about it you wouldn't

411
00:17:00,110 --> 00:16:58,740
have to keep publishing so so what I

412
00:17:04,250 --> 00:17:00,120
wonder

413
00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:04,260
Richard is

414
00:17:11,630 --> 00:17:09,470
there really is no such thing as

415
00:17:13,130 --> 00:17:11,640
Consciousness at all and that there's

416
00:17:14,689 --> 00:17:13,140
some other understanding of the

417
00:17:17,689 --> 00:17:14,699
functioning of the human brain that

418
00:17:26,289 --> 00:17:17,699
renders that question obsolete medical

419
00:17:32,450 --> 00:17:29,810
what is so funny about that of course

420
00:17:34,730 --> 00:17:32,460
that last voice was Bill Nye the Science

421
00:17:42,650 --> 00:17:34,740
Guy who was up there with him too he was

422
00:17:47,409 --> 00:17:44,810
idea that maybe Consciousness is not

423
00:17:50,810 --> 00:17:47,419
there it's probably the weirdest

424
00:17:53,690 --> 00:17:50,820
stupidest idea ever conceived by human

425
00:17:56,630 --> 00:17:53,700
thought I mean where does thought take

426
00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:56,640
place it takes place in Consciousness so

427
00:18:02,090 --> 00:17:59,760
here we have Consciousness uh

428
00:18:04,730 --> 00:18:02,100
speculating about the possibility that

429
00:18:07,730 --> 00:18:04,740
Consciousness does not exist and it may

430
00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:07,740
not be there I mean the very thought is

431
00:18:12,650 --> 00:18:10,799
is that in your face contradiction and

432
00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:12,660
the fact that something like this is not

433
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:14,720
only seriously entertained but even

434
00:18:22,190 --> 00:18:18,240
verbalized by a person with the public

435
00:18:23,650 --> 00:18:22,200
exposure of the gentleman we just saw is

436
00:18:27,470 --> 00:18:23,660
is uh

437
00:18:30,350 --> 00:18:27,480
uh a worrying sign of cultural sickness

438
00:18:33,289 --> 00:18:30,360
okay so that first quote or that first

439
00:18:36,770 --> 00:18:33,299
clip was obviously uh Dr Neil deGrasse

440
00:18:40,150 --> 00:18:36,780
Tyson and the second was me yucking it

441
00:18:45,169 --> 00:18:40,160
up with Dr Bernardo Castro about just

442
00:18:47,150 --> 00:18:45,179
how absurd that is and I think he does a

443
00:18:50,990 --> 00:18:47,160
great job of it so I don't need to go

444
00:18:55,850 --> 00:18:51,000
over it again but I juxtapose that with

445
00:18:59,690 --> 00:18:55,860
Sam Harris's clip because Sam Harris is

446
00:19:02,090 --> 00:18:59,700
saying the exact same thing he's just

447
00:19:04,250 --> 00:19:02,100
putting it in a different rapper he's

448
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:04,260
saying well Consciousness can really

449
00:19:09,770 --> 00:19:07,440
only be tied to the brain so therefore

450
00:19:12,950 --> 00:19:09,780
there's no way we could even imagine

451
00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:12,960
philosophy philosophy philosophy that

452
00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:15,780
Consciousness could survive bodily death

453
00:19:23,390 --> 00:19:19,740
enter in our friend Dr Alexander in

454
00:19:25,130 --> 00:19:23,400
Brazil who says hey well I'm sorry I

455
00:19:27,650 --> 00:19:25,140
just reviewed the best evidence we have

456
00:19:29,690 --> 00:19:27,660
and it completely contradicts what

457
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:29,700
you're saying by every means we have of

458
00:19:34,669 --> 00:19:32,400
evaluating it yeah what did you think of

459
00:19:36,590 --> 00:19:34,679
that that little absolutely and I like I

460
00:19:39,890 --> 00:19:36,600
said I love that Rogues gallery of

461
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:39,900
you've got the Lawrence Krauss and Sam

462
00:19:44,510 --> 00:19:42,240
Harris and Bill Nye the Science Guy was

463
00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:44,520
great and he had

464
00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:47,520
um Neil deGrasse Tyson and um and and I

465
00:19:53,870 --> 00:19:50,340
love you know castrov's response to that

466
00:19:57,770 --> 00:19:53,880
he's he's never at a loss for um an

467
00:20:00,289 --> 00:19:57,780
acerbic response to nonsense but um in

468
00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:00,299
nonsense is the key word because uh what

469
00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:02,760
Bernardo is saying here which is

470
00:20:06,409 --> 00:20:04,559
difficult for people to hear because I

471
00:20:08,510 --> 00:20:06,419
know you know I run into this all the

472
00:20:11,450 --> 00:20:08,520
time in kind of the don't suffer fools

473
00:20:13,789 --> 00:20:11,460
gladly kind of thing but it's like this

474
00:20:15,950 --> 00:20:13,799
is how you know you're unacademic you're

475
00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:15,960
an intellectual you're a scholar this is

476
00:20:22,070 --> 00:20:19,320
how you guys talk it is it's not a blood

477
00:20:25,070 --> 00:20:22,080
sport but it's like hey we got to get to

478
00:20:27,950 --> 00:20:25,080
the truth so we don't you know we just

479
00:20:31,370 --> 00:20:27,960
kind of put it out there and say that's

480
00:20:33,650 --> 00:20:31,380
silly it's nonsense no I don't know I I

481
00:20:36,470 --> 00:20:33,660
think I'm kind of as flummoxed as you

482
00:20:38,450 --> 00:20:36,480
and I'm I'm constantly I'm even writing

483
00:20:40,669 --> 00:20:38,460
you know some scholar you know my own

484
00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:40,679
scholarly papers and looking at the the

485
00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:43,200
research and um and reading the

486
00:20:48,049 --> 00:20:44,700
scholarship all the time I just don't

487
00:20:49,850 --> 00:20:48,059
get it I I think to some extent you know

488
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:49,860
I think people like Rupert sheldrick you

489
00:20:53,930 --> 00:20:51,600
know as a long time fan here a long time

490
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:53,940
guest here has pointed this out to you

491
00:20:57,970 --> 00:20:56,400
that to some extent the scientific

492
00:21:02,150 --> 00:20:57,980
community

493
00:21:04,730 --> 00:21:02,160
has loosened its death grip desperate

494
00:21:08,150 --> 00:21:04,740
death grip on materialism correct I mean

495
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:08,160
and now even a Sam Harris I think

496
00:21:13,310 --> 00:21:10,559
um is starting to talk about things like

497
00:21:16,270 --> 00:21:13,320
pan psychism and all these Escape Routes

498
00:21:18,770 --> 00:21:16,280
they have where they can try to still be

499
00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:18,780
physicalists but pretend they're not

500
00:21:24,049 --> 00:21:21,120
right and and uh open the door just

501
00:21:26,029 --> 00:21:24,059
enough to let some other stuff in

502
00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:26,039
um so that they they do they don't sound

503
00:21:32,750 --> 00:21:30,720
completely ridiculous but um I I just

504
00:21:34,909 --> 00:21:32,760
don't know I read this stuff and I and

505
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:34,919
this is why I guess I've lingered on

506
00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:37,440
this topic so long and haven't gone your

507
00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:39,960
route is sort of the skeptical 2.0 route

508
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:41,820
and just said listen we've got this

509
00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:44,159
question settled now any reasonable

510
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:46,080
person can look over the evidence for

511
00:21:50,870 --> 00:21:48,240
themselves let's see where it leads us

512
00:21:52,370 --> 00:21:50,880
let's get beyond the debate over whether

513
00:21:54,529 --> 00:21:52,380
there's such a thing as Consciousness

514
00:21:56,570 --> 00:21:54,539
and all this ridiculous stuff

515
00:21:58,970 --> 00:21:56,580
um I keep going back to it because

516
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:58,980
everybody in people in my field are

517
00:22:03,289 --> 00:22:01,200
still insisting no matter what arguments

518
00:22:06,049 --> 00:22:03,299
you come up with no matter how you

519
00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:06,059
critique their arguments they're still

520
00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:08,220
insisting the kind of things you're

521
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:10,380
hearing from Sam Harris in that video

522
00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:12,240
you said something really interesting

523
00:22:16,610 --> 00:22:14,340
there Rich that I think we should jump

524
00:22:19,130 --> 00:22:16,620
onto next and that is the loosening of

525
00:22:21,049 --> 00:22:19,140
the grip of materialism although I would

526
00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:21,059
say I don't think it's a loosening the

527
00:22:26,810 --> 00:22:24,200
grip as much as it is kind of

528
00:22:29,390 --> 00:22:26,820
re-aiming at the target of retargeting

529
00:22:32,029 --> 00:22:29,400
in a different way and I think the next

530
00:22:35,930 --> 00:22:32,039
article that you sent me is a perfect

531
00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:35,940
example of that so tell folks about this

532
00:22:40,250 --> 00:22:38,700
article that you sent me yeah it's a

533
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:40,260
great article I like it's written for

534
00:22:45,710 --> 00:22:43,200
the public in aeon magazine by some

535
00:22:48,890 --> 00:22:45,720
leading public intellectual kind of

536
00:22:50,690 --> 00:22:48,900
scientific figures and uh who are both

537
00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:50,700
physicists and then a couple of them

538
00:22:54,830 --> 00:22:52,440
have been guests on the show I think at

539
00:22:57,649 --> 00:22:54,840
least right is Evan thomp Thompson or

540
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:57,659
Thomas what's his name Evan Thompson one

541
00:23:02,090 --> 00:23:00,240
of those yeah and uh he's just like we

542
00:23:05,029 --> 00:23:02,100
you know he's a psychologist who yeah

543
00:23:07,730 --> 00:23:05,039
Marcelo bleiser Adam Frank are two

544
00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:07,740
really popular physicists right now and

545
00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:09,840
I mean by popular I mean in the in the

546
00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:12,000
popular culture right now you hear a lot

547
00:23:17,210 --> 00:23:13,860
about hear a lot from them and Evan

548
00:23:20,690 --> 00:23:17,220
Thompson certainly is as a psychologist

549
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:20,700
um I just you know again the the article

550
00:23:26,270 --> 00:23:23,520
uh talks about the need for science

551
00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:26,280
again to expand its purview

552
00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:29,100
from Simply

553
00:23:36,049 --> 00:23:33,000
looking at reality from a third person

554
00:23:37,970 --> 00:23:36,059
lens to more at least of a first person

555
00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:37,980
lens they have no idea how to do that

556
00:23:42,529 --> 00:23:39,840
but they want to stay they they want to

557
00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:42,539
say that as scientists when we're

558
00:23:46,789 --> 00:23:44,340
talking about reality in general we can

559
00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:46,799
no longer and only validate a third

560
00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:49,260
person perspective abstract scientific

561
00:23:54,529 --> 00:23:52,799
perspective on reality we need to admit

562
00:23:56,990 --> 00:23:54,539
that there's such a thing as a first

563
00:23:58,730 --> 00:23:57,000
person perspective and yet all three of

564
00:24:00,649 --> 00:23:58,740
those guys and I'm not really sure about

565
00:24:03,710 --> 00:24:00,659
Evan Thompson but I think all three of

566
00:24:05,450 --> 00:24:03,720
those guys are pretty much they're

567
00:24:08,330 --> 00:24:05,460
physicalists I would consider them

568
00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:08,340
physicalists and I have no idea how you

569
00:24:12,409 --> 00:24:11,340
would reconcile those two those two

570
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:12,419
parameters

571
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:13,919
I think that the

572
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:16,320
just to add one more thing I think the

573
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:19,200
the Contemporary physicalists who are

574
00:24:22,850 --> 00:24:21,120
being the most honest and and putting

575
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:22,860
forth the best argument now that they

576
00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:25,679
can come up with are the olymp the guys

577
00:24:30,289 --> 00:24:27,440
that are called The Limited

578
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:30,299
eliminativists or illusionists sometimes

579
00:24:34,730 --> 00:24:32,400
they call themselves

580
00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:34,740
um who just sort of bite the bullet and

581
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:36,900
they say Consciousness is an illusion I

582
00:24:41,870 --> 00:24:39,600
don't know how that works either but

583
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:41,880
that's another new argument that's sort

584
00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:43,440
of doubling down on the traditional

585
00:24:48,110 --> 00:24:45,720
materialist argument the other the other

586
00:24:50,810 --> 00:24:48,120
strategy is to do what these three guys

587
00:24:52,669 --> 00:24:50,820
have done and say well we also we're not

588
00:24:55,610 --> 00:24:52,679
really we don't believe in scientism

589
00:24:57,710 --> 00:24:55,620
anymore we believe in naturalism so we

590
00:24:59,930 --> 00:24:57,720
admit that people have things like lived

591
00:25:01,370 --> 00:24:59,940
experience and you can find meaning in

592
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:01,380
life even though life really is

593
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:03,600
meaningless because all it is is a bunch

594
00:25:08,570 --> 00:25:06,000
of physical forces and Abstract

595
00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:08,580
quantities in motion but but we like

596
00:25:12,409 --> 00:25:10,500
that that's the strategy I think that's

597
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:12,419
the significance of that article as far

598
00:25:18,409 --> 00:25:15,120
as I'm concerned I would agree so what

599
00:25:19,850 --> 00:25:18,419
they're trying to do is to like they've

600
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:19,860
done a million times before with other

601
00:25:24,169 --> 00:25:21,840
things they're they're trying to have it

602
00:25:26,029 --> 00:25:24,179
both ways right so from a philosophical

603
00:25:28,430 --> 00:25:26,039
standpoint they're trying to reach down

604
00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:28,440
and embrace you and say we got you and

605
00:25:31,909 --> 00:25:30,000
then from a scientific standpoint

606
00:25:34,430 --> 00:25:31,919
they're saying hey there's this new

607
00:25:37,610 --> 00:25:34,440
thing out there called experience yeah

608
00:25:39,230 --> 00:25:37,620
no splash there is such a thing as Human

609
00:25:42,830 --> 00:25:39,240
Experience yeah but then they're careful

610
00:25:45,470 --> 00:25:42,840
in the r article to say as you just said

611
00:25:47,090 --> 00:25:45,480
to walk the line and say hey this

612
00:25:49,370 --> 00:25:47,100
doesn't mean I'm down with anything

613
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:49,380
Supernatural or anything outside of

614
00:25:54,169 --> 00:25:51,600
physics which of course is complete

615
00:25:56,510 --> 00:25:54,179
nonsense because the problem with

616
00:25:59,029 --> 00:25:56,520
Consciousness the problem with

617
00:26:02,090 --> 00:25:59,039
Consciousness is not an illusion which

618
00:26:05,090 --> 00:26:02,100
is obvious it is proven by Consciousness

619
00:26:08,269 --> 00:26:05,100
surviving debt is that it does mean that

620
00:26:11,090 --> 00:26:08,279
science is fundamentally incomplete in

621
00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:11,100
its understanding so when you science

622
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:13,760
can no longer talk about things like

623
00:26:17,690 --> 00:26:15,440
Supernatural

624
00:26:19,610 --> 00:26:17,700
the whole meaning of science is that we

625
00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:19,620
can measure things in this natural world

626
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:21,900
and now you're starting so as soon as

627
00:26:27,169 --> 00:26:23,520
you start talking about things outside

628
00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:27,179
the natural world you put super on it or

629
00:26:32,149 --> 00:26:29,279
you can put some extra other term on it

630
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,159
but you're outside of of that range

631
00:26:37,669 --> 00:26:34,799
do you see the same contradiction I do

632
00:26:39,710 --> 00:26:37,679
in this idea of

633
00:26:42,409 --> 00:26:39,720
lived experience

634
00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:42,419
if Consciousness is ultimately an

635
00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:43,500
illusion

636
00:26:49,549 --> 00:26:47,760
yeah I mean I I you know Sean Carroll is

637
00:26:52,130 --> 00:26:49,559
writing books about the meaning of life

638
00:26:53,690 --> 00:26:52,140
he's a complete materialist right I

639
00:26:56,029 --> 00:26:53,700
think you had him on the show about it

640
00:26:59,149 --> 00:26:56,039
right and

641
00:27:01,250 --> 00:26:59,159
um you know Sam Harris is is is a guru

642
00:27:03,289 --> 00:27:01,260
now right I mean he's a pop culture sort

643
00:27:05,090 --> 00:27:03,299
of Guru but people come to him with

644
00:27:08,570 --> 00:27:05,100
answers about the meaning of life and

645
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:08,580
what is it and and to me I I if you're a

646
00:27:12,370 --> 00:27:10,080
physicalist

647
00:27:14,450 --> 00:27:12,380
one of the main thing I mean you you

648
00:27:18,590 --> 00:27:14,460
can't really

649
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:18,600
acknowledge aesthetic quality you can't

650
00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:20,880
really acknowledge literature art you

651
00:27:24,289 --> 00:27:22,860
can't acknowledge the meaning of life if

652
00:27:26,450 --> 00:27:24,299
there is such a thing now they don't

653
00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:26,460
think I mean it's ruled out in advance

654
00:27:32,330 --> 00:27:28,799
from your perspective as a guy

655
00:27:34,669 --> 00:27:32,340
philosophy cultural history why is that

656
00:27:37,010 --> 00:27:34,679
obvious to you and I but they've

657
00:27:38,510 --> 00:27:37,020
obscured it in terms of they make it

658
00:27:41,090 --> 00:27:38,520
sound like well what do you mean Rich no

659
00:27:44,690 --> 00:27:41,100
of course you can yeah yeah

660
00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:44,700
um I don't know I mean your guess is as

661
00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:46,200
good as mine because you've interrogated

662
00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:48,240
these guys on the same thing right the

663
00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:50,940
Apostles of the established religion of

664
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:52,740
scientism and physicalism have said it

665
00:27:58,490 --> 00:27:54,720
best themselves right Richard Dawkins

666
00:28:00,110 --> 00:27:58,500
says that we're biological robots robots

667
00:28:01,730 --> 00:28:00,120
don't have any sense of meaning they

668
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:01,740
don't have any Consciousness they don't

669
00:28:05,390 --> 00:28:03,120
have any sense of morality they don't

670
00:28:08,450 --> 00:28:05,400
choose they don't have free will he also

671
00:28:10,850 --> 00:28:08,460
said that the world as we see it is not

672
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:10,860
only pointless but it's

673
00:28:16,370 --> 00:28:12,720
um everything that you would expect if

674
00:28:19,789 --> 00:28:16,380
his reductive consent conception of

675
00:28:23,570 --> 00:28:19,799
evolution is true purposeless pitiless

676
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:23,580
cold indifferent cruel which again I

677
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:25,440
suppose the cruel part isn't a word that

678
00:28:28,610 --> 00:28:26,880
he could really admit because you can't

679
00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:28,620
even have you can't even have good or

680
00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:31,679
evil as you've pointed out in a realm

681
00:28:36,529 --> 00:28:33,720
without Consciousness or meaning

682
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:36,539
so I have no idea I think that's what

683
00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:37,919
that me I think

684
00:28:43,070 --> 00:28:40,860
again in the great the great gift that

685
00:28:46,430 --> 00:28:43,080
science has given us is to be is to

686
00:28:49,490 --> 00:28:46,440
allow people who want to approach

687
00:28:53,330 --> 00:28:49,500
questions about experience in that

688
00:28:55,549 --> 00:28:53,340
reductive abstract way mechanistic way

689
00:29:00,169 --> 00:28:55,559
that science allows you to

690
00:29:02,210 --> 00:29:00,179
to proceed to look at questions and only

691
00:29:04,909 --> 00:29:02,220
look at them through that narrow lens

692
00:29:08,590 --> 00:29:04,919
but and and that narrow lens allows you

693
00:29:12,529 --> 00:29:08,600
by virtue of its reductive simplistic

694
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:12,539
abstract nature to control and

695
00:29:19,730 --> 00:29:15,600
manipulate the world and the environment

696
00:29:21,409 --> 00:29:19,740
in very effective ways that you can't if

697
00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:21,419
you admit all these other things into

698
00:29:24,610 --> 00:29:22,440
the picture

699
00:29:27,230 --> 00:29:24,620
but that's the scientific picture

700
00:29:28,850 --> 00:29:27,240
necessitates if it's a physicalist one

701
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:28,860
that you

702
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:33,200
you rule out in advance anything

703
00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:35,760
associated with consciousness

704
00:29:40,490 --> 00:29:37,440
and you know the way I always put it is

705
00:29:43,789 --> 00:29:40,500
science requires our ability to measure

706
00:29:45,470 --> 00:29:43,799
right that's it and if we're going to

707
00:29:48,169 --> 00:29:45,480
say that Consciousness is this other

708
00:29:50,750 --> 00:29:48,179
player in this game but we can't really

709
00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:50,760
wrap our arms around it Neil deGrasse

710
00:29:55,070 --> 00:29:53,279
Tyson was fumbling to say then we're

711
00:29:56,810 --> 00:29:55,080
saying that everything we do over here

712
00:29:59,389 --> 00:29:56,820
we can't really measure because there's

713
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:59,399
an asterisk by all our measurements that

714
00:30:02,690 --> 00:30:00,720
says we couldn't really account for

715
00:30:04,549 --> 00:30:02,700
Consciousness well you know what's out

716
00:30:06,529 --> 00:30:04,559
there but we couldn't really account for

717
00:30:08,930 --> 00:30:06,539
it and that's really uncomfortable and

718
00:30:11,870 --> 00:30:08,940
so I think what's really kind of cool

719
00:30:14,029 --> 00:30:11,880
but I love how you brought this to the

720
00:30:15,950 --> 00:30:14,039
table for this discussion is this idea

721
00:30:18,289 --> 00:30:15,960
of how they're now trying to sneak in

722
00:30:21,350 --> 00:30:18,299
this lived experience so when you see

723
00:30:24,169 --> 00:30:21,360
somebody say lived experience know that

724
00:30:25,970 --> 00:30:24,179
what they're really saying is

725
00:30:27,769 --> 00:30:25,980
you're a biological robot in a

726
00:30:29,870 --> 00:30:27,779
meaningless universe and I'm going to

727
00:30:33,049 --> 00:30:29,880
condescendingly Pat you on the head and

728
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:33,059
say you have the illusion of having some

729
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:35,600
form of experience but I'm not really

730
00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:38,880
acknowledging that do you think let me

731
00:30:42,049 --> 00:30:39,960
ask you because this is something we

732
00:30:43,250 --> 00:30:42,059
talked about prior to in anticipation of

733
00:30:46,549 --> 00:30:43,260
this

734
00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:46,559
of where you wanted to go with it anyway

735
00:30:52,010 --> 00:30:50,159
but do you think that those guys you

736
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:52,020
know who are again there's such

737
00:30:56,269 --> 00:30:54,000
important public intellectuals they

738
00:30:59,930 --> 00:30:56,279
influence millions of people they speak

739
00:31:02,570 --> 00:30:59,940
for the ethos of our intellectual and

740
00:31:05,269 --> 00:31:02,580
popular culture do you think those guys

741
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,279
meaning the Dawkins and the Sam Harris's

742
00:31:09,950 --> 00:31:07,679
and the Sean carrolls

743
00:31:11,450 --> 00:31:09,960
do you think that they are actually

744
00:31:14,269 --> 00:31:11,460
secretly

745
00:31:17,090 --> 00:31:14,279
they're so cynical that they're smarter

746
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:17,100
than what they're actually saying

747
00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:19,919
or do you think they really believe in

748
00:31:24,110 --> 00:31:22,140
some kind of convoluted way that you can

749
00:31:26,450 --> 00:31:24,120
have a meaningless universe but also

750
00:31:27,950 --> 00:31:26,460
have meaning at the same time

751
00:31:29,630 --> 00:31:27,960
this is the question I've really

752
00:31:31,430 --> 00:31:29,640
wrestled with for a long time and I

753
00:31:34,669 --> 00:31:31,440
think I've loved it for the longest time

754
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:34,679
for years because I really didn't

755
00:31:38,269 --> 00:31:36,720
believe in my heart of hearts that

756
00:31:40,730 --> 00:31:38,279
someone could wrap their head around it

757
00:31:42,950 --> 00:31:40,740
I thought they were I thought they were

758
00:31:44,930 --> 00:31:42,960
front man I thought they were playing

759
00:31:47,090 --> 00:31:44,940
and I don't think that anymore and I

760
00:31:49,250 --> 00:31:47,100
think it boils down to three things

761
00:31:52,610 --> 00:31:49,260
and I think they're really important to

762
00:31:55,250 --> 00:31:52,620
differentiate the first is just a

763
00:31:57,710 --> 00:31:55,260
personal you know what I mean we have

764
00:31:59,810 --> 00:31:57,720
per we all have personal beliefs that

765
00:32:01,909 --> 00:31:59,820
we've built up because they make us feel

766
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:01,919
comfortable they make us feel like who

767
00:32:05,690 --> 00:32:03,840
we are they make us feel like we

768
00:32:07,610 --> 00:32:05,700
understand the world at least a little

769
00:32:09,889 --> 00:32:07,620
bit where we can kind of function in it

770
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:09,899
and when someone comes along and wants

771
00:32:15,289 --> 00:32:12,960
to change that the reaction is

772
00:32:17,090 --> 00:32:15,299
really strange in some ways you know

773
00:32:19,070 --> 00:32:17,100
this is the the religious kind of thing

774
00:32:20,810 --> 00:32:19,080
and the fundamentalist kind of thing

775
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:20,820
it's the cultish thing but it's also

776
00:32:25,010 --> 00:32:23,279
just the kind of every day I get up and

777
00:32:27,169 --> 00:32:25,020
I eat the same breakfast and I go to the

778
00:32:31,490 --> 00:32:27,179
gym at the same time and it's I want to

779
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:31,500
feel comfortable I get it I'm there but

780
00:32:36,769 --> 00:32:34,559
when that comes into your job as a

781
00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:36,779
scientist or philosopher you get what

782
00:32:41,690 --> 00:32:38,880
you get which is what we see

783
00:32:44,029 --> 00:32:41,700
the second element of it I think is

784
00:32:47,149 --> 00:32:44,039
professional you know what I mean you

785
00:32:48,529 --> 00:32:47,159
can't talk we know this you know all the

786
00:32:51,950 --> 00:32:48,539
skeptical shows I've done where somebody

787
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:51,960
says hey man it was my job and you know

788
00:32:56,870 --> 00:32:54,000
my boss said the head of the department

789
00:33:00,049 --> 00:32:56,880
said you published that again you can

790
00:33:02,330 --> 00:33:00,059
find someplace else to go bang your

791
00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:02,340
shingle and work as a professor which

792
00:33:07,789 --> 00:33:05,820
isn't easy right so you just learn to

793
00:33:09,529 --> 00:33:07,799
kind of get along and what's the most

794
00:33:12,110 --> 00:33:09,539
important thing

795
00:33:14,330 --> 00:33:12,120
but the third one and this is my

796
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:14,340
frustration with so many of the people I

797
00:33:17,630 --> 00:33:15,840
talk to in our community in the

798
00:33:18,590 --> 00:33:17,640
community we're familiar with is the

799
00:33:23,149 --> 00:33:18,600
deception

800
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:23,159
there are people who it is their job to

801
00:33:29,149 --> 00:33:27,360
obscure to confuse to mislead if you

802
00:33:31,549 --> 00:33:29,159
will they don't even have to mislead all

803
00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:31,559
they have to do is confuse to keep the

804
00:33:34,850 --> 00:33:33,480
momentum going like we've seen you know

805
00:33:37,070 --> 00:33:34,860
you talk about the near-death experience

806
00:33:39,049 --> 00:33:37,080
when that thing first hit you know let's

807
00:33:40,370 --> 00:33:39,059
talk about the Evan Alexander thing and

808
00:33:42,230 --> 00:33:40,380
all of a sudden the pushback was

809
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:42,240
immediate and came from all these angles

810
00:33:45,970 --> 00:33:44,159
and it's on the front of the magazines

811
00:33:48,649 --> 00:33:45,980
and all this and he was debunked

812
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:48,659
organized systematic there is something

813
00:33:53,570 --> 00:33:51,360
behind that and when I talk to you know

814
00:33:56,810 --> 00:33:53,580
near-death experienced researchers who

815
00:33:59,509 --> 00:33:56,820
are at universities and say do you see

816
00:34:01,130 --> 00:33:59,519
that and they kind of chuckle and they

817
00:34:03,950 --> 00:34:01,140
kind of sneer and they kind of

818
00:34:07,009 --> 00:34:03,960
condescendingly go well no I mean there

819
00:34:08,990 --> 00:34:07,019
isn't any real deception well of course

820
00:34:11,810 --> 00:34:09,000
there is all you have to do is you have

821
00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:11,820
to look other places and that's where I

822
00:34:15,349 --> 00:34:13,020
thought you know at the beginning I said

823
00:34:19,369 --> 00:34:15,359
you look at what happened in the last

824
00:34:21,589 --> 00:34:19,379
year and and how they claimed made all

825
00:34:23,570 --> 00:34:21,599
these false claims about science that

826
00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:23,580
have now been proven false and they

827
00:34:28,609 --> 00:34:25,740
claim that they were science that is how

828
00:34:31,490 --> 00:34:28,619
the game is played on as it was revealed

829
00:34:34,730 --> 00:34:31,500
to us to think that that game to some

830
00:34:37,129 --> 00:34:34,740
extent isn't being played over here on

831
00:34:38,089 --> 00:34:37,139
the Consciousness thing I think is just

832
00:34:41,629 --> 00:34:38,099
naive

833
00:34:43,609 --> 00:34:41,639
what do you think yeah I I I I let me

834
00:34:46,129 --> 00:34:43,619
ask you this because

835
00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:46,139
I get you and and the last few

836
00:34:49,970 --> 00:34:48,240
interviews I'd say of the last six or

837
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:49,980
seven interviews shows you've done on

838
00:34:55,129 --> 00:34:52,260
skeptico I think have really with a few

839
00:34:58,250 --> 00:34:55,139
people in particular have really I

840
00:35:01,670 --> 00:34:58,260
thought addressed that and drawn a lot

841
00:35:03,770 --> 00:35:01,680
of these disparate areas where you where

842
00:35:05,329 --> 00:35:03,780
you recognize this going on together I

843
00:35:07,490 --> 00:35:05,339
thought I don't know if you agree but I

844
00:35:09,770 --> 00:35:07,500
I thought they were particularly good

845
00:35:10,609 --> 00:35:09,780
um made me think a lot about

846
00:35:15,170 --> 00:35:10,619
um

847
00:35:16,730 --> 00:35:15,180
about this I I just I I look around and

848
00:35:19,069 --> 00:35:16,740
I think even with say the science

849
00:35:20,810 --> 00:35:19,079
recently about a lot of these recent

850
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:20,820
issues that you you've addressed on

851
00:35:25,670 --> 00:35:22,320
skeptico

852
00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:25,680
um and you see that you know the

853
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:28,140
you know that yeah really within the the

854
00:35:34,990 --> 00:35:30,720
space of a year these these claims are

855
00:35:40,370 --> 00:35:38,270
ridiculously it is wrong or inconsistent

856
00:35:42,290 --> 00:35:40,380
are the reason that the people who are

857
00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:42,300
making them even though even even in

858
00:35:45,890 --> 00:35:43,500
those situations not even about

859
00:35:47,690 --> 00:35:45,900
Consciousness are those people just

860
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:47,700
doing that because they're supposed to

861
00:35:52,010 --> 00:35:49,680
sound authoritative and they're and they

862
00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:52,020
and they're supposed to sound like they

863
00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:53,520
like they know what they're talking

864
00:35:56,990 --> 00:35:55,200
about and they're pretty sure and there

865
00:35:59,210 --> 00:35:57,000
are all kinds of political forces sort

866
00:36:00,530 --> 00:35:59,220
of forcing them and pressuring them to

867
00:36:02,930 --> 00:36:00,540
maybe

868
00:36:06,410 --> 00:36:02,940
sound more sure of their theories than

869
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,420
they are or is it even more diabolical

870
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:08,160
than that that's what I'm wondering is

871
00:36:12,890 --> 00:36:10,079
is it that or does it depend on the

872
00:36:14,810 --> 00:36:12,900
field I don't know or um does it or do

873
00:36:16,730 --> 00:36:14,820
they really are they being deceptive

874
00:36:19,130 --> 00:36:16,740
because they just want to be deceptive

875
00:36:21,530 --> 00:36:19,140
for evil purposes for lack of a better

876
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:21,540
word well you know it's interesting

877
00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:23,280
because I I thought I was with you right

878
00:36:27,770 --> 00:36:24,720
there until the end and then I think it

879
00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:27,780
gets tricky because I I really

880
00:36:31,550 --> 00:36:30,000
appreciate that you saw that in those

881
00:36:33,710 --> 00:36:31,560
shows because I think when you step

882
00:36:35,930 --> 00:36:33,720
outside of our little world here which

883
00:36:37,310 --> 00:36:35,940
is the which is the real game the game

884
00:36:39,829 --> 00:36:37,320
that you and I are playing does

885
00:36:43,069 --> 00:36:39,839
Consciousness survive death is the gain

886
00:36:44,569 --> 00:36:43,079
because it's ultimately who are you why

887
00:36:47,569 --> 00:36:44,579
are you here it's the most fundamental

888
00:36:49,730 --> 00:36:47,579
questions we can ask and to get pulled

889
00:36:53,870 --> 00:36:49,740
into you know all this other stuff of

890
00:36:56,690 --> 00:36:53,880
current events or the UFO stuff or you

891
00:36:59,390 --> 00:36:56,700
know anything about the Health crisis

892
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:59,400
that went on you know it is really to

893
00:37:02,450 --> 00:37:00,240
kind of miss the point because which

894
00:37:05,150 --> 00:37:02,460
really want to know is

895
00:37:07,250 --> 00:37:05,160
is there more to me and then I can start

896
00:37:09,470 --> 00:37:07,260
dealing with you know what is my

897
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:09,480
relationship to that greater and I think

898
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:12,000
as we're saying you can only do that if

899
00:37:15,470 --> 00:37:13,920
you step over that line and get into

900
00:37:17,690 --> 00:37:15,480
Consciousness but the good thing about

901
00:37:19,790 --> 00:37:17,700
going in those other areas is it kind of

902
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:19,800
reveals some things that we can know

903
00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:21,599
about the deceptive element and there's

904
00:37:27,410 --> 00:37:24,660
two things I think at play one is there

905
00:37:29,930 --> 00:37:27,420
are people who can be convinced along

906
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:29,940
that professional line that it is in

907
00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:32,400
everyone's best interest for them to be

908
00:37:36,650 --> 00:37:35,040
deceptive and come on we all kind of

909
00:37:38,569 --> 00:37:36,660
play the game and you know you didn't

910
00:37:40,730 --> 00:37:38,579
tell the car dealer this or you know

911
00:37:42,770 --> 00:37:40,740
whatever when I filled out my mortgage

912
00:37:45,109 --> 00:37:42,780
application of course I didn't exactly

913
00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:45,119
you know do this we all know there's a

914
00:37:48,650 --> 00:37:46,800
gray area so if I'm going to play that

915
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:48,660
gray area am I really that different

916
00:37:53,329 --> 00:37:52,079
from from anyone else there's that and I

917
00:37:55,130 --> 00:37:53,339
think that can be really really

918
00:37:58,069 --> 00:37:55,140
confusing to us who are trying to figure

919
00:38:01,130 --> 00:37:58,079
out who is Sam Harris is he real is Neil

920
00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:01,140
deGrasse Tyson is he real or is he a

921
00:38:07,970 --> 00:38:04,680
psyop because second part of it is the

922
00:38:09,470 --> 00:38:07,980
people who that is their job so you know

923
00:38:11,530 --> 00:38:09,480
the Michael Wallach interview I did Bob

924
00:38:15,530 --> 00:38:11,540
you go and you come out of it you go

925
00:38:18,770 --> 00:38:15,540
wait a minute maybe that is this guy's

926
00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:18,780
job he is a professional because we know

927
00:38:23,390 --> 00:38:20,160
we have we know we have more of them

928
00:38:25,910 --> 00:38:23,400
than ever any time in history people

929
00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:25,920
whose job it is to control the narrative

930
00:38:31,370 --> 00:38:28,260
to be part of the social engineering

931
00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:31,380
project so again I think the hard thing

932
00:38:38,089 --> 00:38:35,700
for people in our field to grasp is to

933
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:38,099
even consider that that might be at play

934
00:38:43,970 --> 00:38:40,079
and when I bring it up to folks and they

935
00:38:46,510 --> 00:38:43,980
go oh they Snicker they sneer that oh my

936
00:38:49,849 --> 00:38:46,520
God that couldn't be in play in

937
00:38:51,589 --> 00:38:49,859
reincarnation research in near-death

938
00:38:54,770 --> 00:38:51,599
experience research

939
00:38:55,730 --> 00:38:54,780
naive of course it's a big it's a big

940
00:38:59,690 --> 00:38:55,740
game

941
00:39:00,650 --> 00:38:59,700
yeah I I I'm I'm with you there even

942
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:00,660
though

943
00:39:05,170 --> 00:39:04,320
and I can see why people like the the

944
00:39:08,750 --> 00:39:05,180
the

945
00:39:10,609 --> 00:39:08,760
large majority of Scholars who are just

946
00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:10,619
you know putting their nose to the

947
00:39:15,170 --> 00:39:12,540
grindstone and

948
00:39:16,910 --> 00:39:15,180
you know only thinking in terms in the

949
00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:16,920
in the academic bubble that they're

950
00:39:19,790 --> 00:39:18,240
working in

951
00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:19,800
um where you you know you learn the

952
00:39:25,430 --> 00:39:23,040
lingo and you understand how ideas are

953
00:39:27,050 --> 00:39:25,440
expressed and you have this General sort

954
00:39:28,849 --> 00:39:27,060
of Paradigm you know you're working

955
00:39:31,130 --> 00:39:28,859
within in terms of

956
00:39:33,950 --> 00:39:31,140
where you go with your Inc where you can

957
00:39:35,870 --> 00:39:33,960
and can't go with your inquiry and stuff

958
00:39:38,690 --> 00:39:35,880
you can see how the large majority of

959
00:39:40,849 --> 00:39:38,700
those people who I guess are the ones

960
00:39:43,010 --> 00:39:40,859
who who um are

961
00:39:44,510 --> 00:39:43,020
I guess those are the the people who

962
00:39:47,329 --> 00:39:44,520
we're talking about I mean the average

963
00:39:49,609 --> 00:39:47,339
college professor who never you know

964
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:49,619
becomes famous but he's teaching tons of

965
00:39:54,589 --> 00:39:51,599
thousands of students right all the time

966
00:39:56,510 --> 00:39:54,599
and influencing them in terms of things

967
00:39:57,170 --> 00:39:56,520
like Consciousness

968
00:39:59,390 --> 00:39:57,180
um

969
00:40:03,010 --> 00:39:59,400
I can see why they would never even

970
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:03,020
really think about

971
00:40:07,550 --> 00:40:05,760
maybe even question the the received

972
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:07,560
wisdom that Consciousness is physical

973
00:40:13,609 --> 00:40:10,560
somehow and never really think outside

974
00:40:15,770 --> 00:40:13,619
that box or challenge it seriously so

975
00:40:17,690 --> 00:40:15,780
they'd never even get to the point where

976
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,700
they're saying well why would anybody

977
00:40:22,010 --> 00:40:19,920
why wouldn't why would anybody who knows

978
00:40:23,210 --> 00:40:22,020
this is must who must know this is

979
00:40:25,490 --> 00:40:23,220
ridiculous

980
00:40:27,470 --> 00:40:25,500
lie about it

981
00:40:29,390 --> 00:40:27,480
um I just think you know most people are

982
00:40:31,910 --> 00:40:29,400
just oblivious I guess it's like you

983
00:40:34,010 --> 00:40:31,920
know the levels of um of recovery from

984
00:40:35,810 --> 00:40:34,020
substance abuse the first thing to know

985
00:40:38,030 --> 00:40:35,820
is how ignorant you know how bad your

986
00:40:40,010 --> 00:40:38,040
how bad off you are and and people who

987
00:40:42,470 --> 00:40:40,020
are really bad at the lowest level don't

988
00:40:44,030 --> 00:40:42,480
even know they have a problem yet and I

989
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:44,040
get the impression that the large

990
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:46,079
majority of people in our intellectual

991
00:40:50,510 --> 00:40:48,240
and popular culture they don't even know

992
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:50,520
there's a problem and I guess you would

993
00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:53,160
say that is largely because the people

994
00:40:57,050 --> 00:40:55,260
who do know there's a problem

995
00:41:00,109 --> 00:40:57,060
don't want them to know there's a

996
00:41:02,690 --> 00:41:00,119
problem and feed them crap and keep them

997
00:41:05,089 --> 00:41:02,700
distracted and and keep them scared if

998
00:41:08,690 --> 00:41:05,099
that's necessary is that what sort of

999
00:41:11,230 --> 00:41:08,700
where you where the Alex Securus

1000
00:41:15,650 --> 00:41:11,240
um sort of world view on that

1001
00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:15,660
is better more or less I mean I do think

1002
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:17,520
it's interesting we didn't play a lot of

1003
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:20,640
the clip but to listen to Joe Rogan who

1004
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:22,640
I think is tremendous on a lot of things

1005
00:41:27,950 --> 00:41:25,680
limited hangout man yeah limited hangout

1006
00:41:30,829 --> 00:41:27,960
you're listening to Sam Harris Lex

1007
00:41:34,250 --> 00:41:30,839
Friedman yeah Friedman I'm all over the

1008
00:41:36,530 --> 00:41:34,260
AI stuff limited hangout listen to what

1009
00:41:39,290 --> 00:41:36,540
these guys take Sam Harris as an example

1010
00:41:41,089 --> 00:41:39,300
we could have five other people that

1011
00:41:42,829 --> 00:41:41,099
would fit the bill including the people

1012
00:41:46,310 --> 00:41:42,839
you mentioned Sean Carroll Neil grass

1013
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:46,320
Tyson more more current people but it's

1014
00:41:52,970 --> 00:41:48,960
always the message never gets to this

1015
00:41:56,030 --> 00:41:52,980
point it the discussion never reaches uh

1016
00:41:58,970 --> 00:41:56,040
this level in terms of how this is a

1017
00:42:01,250 --> 00:41:58,980
socially engineered how this might be

1018
00:42:03,530 --> 00:42:01,260
how this might be socially engineered

1019
00:42:06,410 --> 00:42:03,540
why it would have certain advantages

1020
00:42:09,290 --> 00:42:06,420
what would be the advantages to doing it

1021
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:09,300
a certain way right and and and I agree

1022
00:42:15,170 --> 00:42:11,760
and you know that it's obvious it's well

1023
00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:15,180
I it seems to me it's obvious why it

1024
00:42:21,130 --> 00:42:18,720
would be great if you wanted to have a

1025
00:42:24,890 --> 00:42:21,140
population that was easy to to control

1026
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:24,900
and to exploit in various ways to have

1027
00:42:31,310 --> 00:42:27,359
that myth be the one you perpetuate as

1028
00:42:34,910 --> 00:42:31,320
your as your you know your social ethos

1029
00:42:38,510 --> 00:42:35,930
you know

1030
00:42:41,150 --> 00:42:38,520
I've been indoctrinated by your show for

1031
00:42:43,970 --> 00:42:41,160
long enough that that I'm I'm I'm where

1032
00:42:46,370 --> 00:42:43,980
you know where your show is heading in

1033
00:42:47,750 --> 00:42:46,380
terms of I got that I mean I think

1034
00:42:51,589 --> 00:42:47,760
that's

1035
00:42:54,230 --> 00:42:51,599
pretty obvious that it's obvious that

1036
00:42:57,130 --> 00:42:54,240
there you know there's probably a in

1037
00:42:59,809 --> 00:42:57,140
some sense and and I don't know how a

1038
00:43:01,250 --> 00:42:59,819
deliberate effort to keep people

1039
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:01,260
dumb

1040
00:43:05,150 --> 00:43:03,359
um so that they can be exploited easily

1041
00:43:08,630 --> 00:43:05,160
I mean it's pretty obvious in a lot of

1042
00:43:11,270 --> 00:43:08,640
ways but then why why do they who wants

1043
00:43:12,650 --> 00:43:11,280
to do that and why is yet another level

1044
00:43:15,589 --> 00:43:12,660
right

1045
00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:15,599
it is it wants to do this keeping people

1046
00:43:20,030 --> 00:43:17,280
dumb I mean who could you put your

1047
00:43:23,569 --> 00:43:20,040
finger on and say a handful of corporate

1048
00:43:25,730 --> 00:43:23,579
CEOs and political figures and then

1049
00:43:27,290 --> 00:43:25,740
beyond them why are they that way is

1050
00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:27,300
this so who's controlling what they

1051
00:43:34,430 --> 00:43:28,319
think

1052
00:43:36,829 --> 00:43:34,440
the whole conversation in a way that is

1053
00:43:39,230 --> 00:43:36,839
they I don't know that they want it to

1054
00:43:40,730 --> 00:43:39,240
be derailed but it is a natural part of

1055
00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:40,740
the thing because I think the answer to

1056
00:43:44,510 --> 00:43:42,480
that comes in a clip and I'll try and

1057
00:43:46,849 --> 00:43:44,520
find the clip and paste it in but I

1058
00:43:49,970 --> 00:43:46,859
don't have it at my fingertips it's from

1059
00:43:51,849 --> 00:43:49,980
a xcia guy and there is no such thing as

1060
00:43:55,370 --> 00:43:51,859
xcia guy

1061
00:43:57,349 --> 00:43:55,380
nonetheless he points out what I've

1062
00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:57,359
always kind of known and he reveals it

1063
00:44:04,190 --> 00:44:00,800
and he says it's about confusion

1064
00:44:06,050 --> 00:44:04,200
that ultimately the whole world is so

1065
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:06,060
complex and the social engineering

1066
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:08,400
project is so impossible that the best

1067
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:11,520
we can hope for in our operations is

1068
00:44:17,630 --> 00:44:14,160
confusion and confusion is a good thing

1069
00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:17,640
because if I control the signal and I

1070
00:44:21,650 --> 00:44:19,200
have a bunch of noise that I can

1071
00:44:23,569 --> 00:44:21,660
introduce and but I can still get my

1072
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:23,579
signal through then I've kind of

1073
00:44:27,349 --> 00:44:25,200
accomplished because I blocked the other

1074
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:27,359
signals that can get through so

1075
00:44:32,750 --> 00:44:30,720
confusion confusion is a good thing get

1076
00:44:35,329 --> 00:44:32,760
people on their heels get people

1077
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:35,339
thinking atheism get people thinking

1078
00:44:40,609 --> 00:44:38,400
then occultism and satanic stuff and get

1079
00:44:42,890 --> 00:44:40,619
people thinking lived experience but

1080
00:44:44,990 --> 00:44:42,900
there really isn't any real lived

1081
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:45,000
experience because conscious divide and

1082
00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:49,440
Rule and confusion is your friend in in

1083
00:44:54,290 --> 00:44:51,359
that process

1084
00:44:56,329 --> 00:44:54,300
are people though who are perpetuating

1085
00:44:59,329 --> 00:44:56,339
the say I'll just take the you know in

1086
00:45:02,089 --> 00:44:59,339
my in my area that that I work in the

1087
00:45:04,130 --> 00:45:02,099
people who are perpetuating

1088
00:45:07,130 --> 00:45:04,140
you know the the physicalism about

1089
00:45:09,349 --> 00:45:07,140
Consciousness uh narrative I mean is

1090
00:45:10,609 --> 00:45:09,359
there any way to trace them to some

1091
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:10,619
larger

1092
00:45:14,930 --> 00:45:12,720
you know their thought and their

1093
00:45:16,730 --> 00:45:14,940
influence to some larger forces at work

1094
00:45:18,890 --> 00:45:16,740
I don't think so because I think we have

1095
00:45:21,230 --> 00:45:18,900
to start with that that almost like that

1096
00:45:23,569 --> 00:45:21,240
pyramid that we talked about and at the

1097
00:45:26,030 --> 00:45:23,579
base of the pyramid is I don't want to

1098
00:45:28,370 --> 00:45:26,040
change my beliefs to whatever extent my

1099
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:28,380
life is livable I won't even say great

1100
00:45:33,950 --> 00:45:31,200
to every extent it's livable it rests on

1101
00:45:36,770 --> 00:45:33,960
the fact that I'm constantly seeking to

1102
00:45:39,829 --> 00:45:36,780
be soothed to be comforted by that voice

1103
00:45:42,050 --> 00:45:39,839
inside my head manipulated in a way that

1104
00:45:43,849 --> 00:45:42,060
makes me feel okay and the last thing I

1105
00:45:46,309 --> 00:45:43,859
want to do is take that leap and say

1106
00:45:47,630 --> 00:45:46,319
there's something more because Beyond

1107
00:45:49,309 --> 00:45:47,640
this whole discussion we're having about

1108
00:45:51,890 --> 00:45:49,319
biological robots in a meaningless

1109
00:45:53,589 --> 00:45:51,900
universe is some of that Sam Harris

1110
00:45:56,510 --> 00:45:53,599
stuff that he's

1111
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:56,520
repurposed in a way but like what is

1112
00:46:00,230 --> 00:45:58,560
that voice inside your head and why are

1113
00:46:03,230 --> 00:46:00,240
you listening to it and what does it do

1114
00:46:05,329 --> 00:46:03,240
and is there an Ultimate voice beyond

1115
00:46:08,030 --> 00:46:05,339
that voice all these are spiritual

1116
00:46:10,910 --> 00:46:08,040
questions the barrier to those spiritual

1117
00:46:13,069 --> 00:46:10,920
questions is the voice is purely a

1118
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:13,079
product of your brain right that's a

1119
00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:15,839
stop that's a full stop but beyond that

1120
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:18,420
there's a lot of there's a lot of

1121
00:46:22,250 --> 00:46:20,700
roadblocks that I don't want to cross

1122
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:22,260
you don't want to cross in terms of

1123
00:46:26,270 --> 00:46:24,240
understanding who we really are how does

1124
00:46:31,970 --> 00:46:26,280
that how does that hit you in terms of

1125
00:46:38,089 --> 00:46:35,569
yeah yeah that no makes makes a great

1126
00:46:40,609 --> 00:46:38,099
deal of sense I I

1127
00:46:43,190 --> 00:46:40,619
you know I I looked up some uh

1128
00:46:45,170 --> 00:46:43,200
statistics on on it's just interesting

1129
00:46:48,410 --> 00:46:45,180
to me that um

1130
00:46:50,329 --> 00:46:48,420
with respect to beliefs in Consciousness

1131
00:46:53,210 --> 00:46:50,339
and popular beliefs in Consciousness

1132
00:46:55,150 --> 00:46:53,220
versus beliefs in the academy and

1133
00:46:58,609 --> 00:46:55,160
there's almost a

1134
00:47:03,010 --> 00:46:58,619
diametrically opposed difference between

1135
00:47:05,809 --> 00:47:03,020
the willingness to accept ideas like

1136
00:47:09,470 --> 00:47:05,819
extended Consciousness in the general

1137
00:47:10,730 --> 00:47:09,480
public versus in the academy

1138
00:47:13,130 --> 00:47:10,740
so

1139
00:47:15,349 --> 00:47:13,140
um it's interesting if you're gonna if

1140
00:47:17,329 --> 00:47:15,359
you're gonna be able to participate

1141
00:47:19,730 --> 00:47:17,339
in the um

1142
00:47:20,809 --> 00:47:19,740
in the high priesthood you really have

1143
00:47:26,690 --> 00:47:20,819
to

1144
00:47:29,329 --> 00:47:26,700
the party line that it's uh that it's

1145
00:47:31,490 --> 00:47:29,339
promoting because it's about three

1146
00:47:34,130 --> 00:47:31,500
quarters or even more of the general

1147
00:47:34,970 --> 00:47:34,140
public tend to be very open to what all

1148
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:34,980
these

1149
00:47:38,450 --> 00:47:37,680
he's you know they're called paranormal

1150
00:47:41,089 --> 00:47:38,460
right

1151
00:47:43,910 --> 00:47:41,099
um or parapsychological phenomenon and

1152
00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:43,920
dimensions of experience

1153
00:47:48,290 --> 00:47:45,839
um the very fact that they're anything

1154
00:47:49,849 --> 00:47:48,300
like that is para anything is kind of

1155
00:47:52,130 --> 00:47:49,859
ridiculous right

1156
00:47:54,770 --> 00:47:52,140
um but but uh among the general public

1157
00:47:58,130 --> 00:47:54,780
is the a 75 80 percent

1158
00:48:00,730 --> 00:47:58,140
um openness to understand to to to the

1159
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:00,740
the reality of those of those

1160
00:48:04,849 --> 00:48:02,880
experiences and that there's some

1161
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:04,859
something generally substantive behind

1162
00:48:08,270 --> 00:48:06,960
them whereas in the academy it's just

1163
00:48:10,670 --> 00:48:08,280
the opposite

1164
00:48:12,770 --> 00:48:10,680
even religious beliefs openness to to

1165
00:48:15,349 --> 00:48:12,780
religious belief it's I think I don't

1166
00:48:18,349 --> 00:48:15,359
know something like 75 of people in

1167
00:48:20,750 --> 00:48:18,359
roughly uh philosophers or atheists

1168
00:48:22,910 --> 00:48:20,760
professional philosophers and something

1169
00:48:25,970 --> 00:48:22,920
like 75 to 80 percent of the general

1170
00:48:28,670 --> 00:48:25,980
public are in some sense religious hey

1171
00:48:30,530 --> 00:48:28,680
Rich before I uh let's just go tell me

1172
00:48:34,550 --> 00:48:30,540
about this project that you're working

1173
00:48:36,650 --> 00:48:34,560
on yeah infinite discoveries uh as our a

1174
00:48:39,250 --> 00:48:36,660
website that put together really by

1175
00:48:43,490 --> 00:48:39,260
colleagues that Drew me into the project

1176
00:48:45,550 --> 00:48:43,500
that is difficult to Define I invite you

1177
00:48:48,609 --> 00:48:45,560
to visit the site at

1178
00:48:51,950 --> 00:48:48,619
infinitdiscoveries.org there are um

1179
00:48:53,210 --> 00:48:51,960
blogs by by ourselves and now we're

1180
00:48:55,550 --> 00:48:53,220
beginning to ask some of our

1181
00:48:59,030 --> 00:48:55,560
contributors and our speakers because we

1182
00:49:01,309 --> 00:48:59,040
also have a YouTube uh a YouTube channel

1183
00:49:03,710 --> 00:49:01,319
that's associated with the with the site

1184
00:49:06,829 --> 00:49:03,720
and we talk about

1185
00:49:09,230 --> 00:49:06,839
current events uh a lot but philosophy

1186
00:49:11,329 --> 00:49:09,240
history uh the social and Behavioral

1187
00:49:15,829 --> 00:49:11,339
Sciences

1188
00:49:17,630 --> 00:49:15,839
um art Humanities with leading kind of

1189
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:17,640
like skeptical with leading thinkers and

1190
00:49:23,630 --> 00:49:19,440
their critics and we consider those

1191
00:49:25,550 --> 00:49:23,640
things on the on that uh that site

1192
00:49:28,309 --> 00:49:25,560
um so feel free to investigate that that

1193
00:49:30,230 --> 00:49:28,319
uh again infinitesdiscoveries.org if

1194
00:49:32,450 --> 00:49:30,240
you're interested in some I don't know

1195
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:32,460
Cutting Edge thinking and research that

1196
00:49:37,190 --> 00:49:34,140
we're doing and that other people are

1197
00:49:39,410 --> 00:49:37,200
doing on world affairs and The Human

1198
00:49:41,930 --> 00:49:39,420
Condition I guess that's that that's

1199
00:49:45,230 --> 00:49:41,940
what the project is really all about

1200
00:49:46,910 --> 00:49:45,240
awesome well I'm so glad you uh you

1201
00:49:48,890 --> 00:49:46,920
reached out to me it's always great to

1202
00:49:50,690 --> 00:49:48,900
talk to you I think we have such a cool

1203
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:50,700
connection I appreciate that you know

1204
00:49:54,230 --> 00:49:52,319
we've kind of connected on the show a

1205
00:49:56,569 --> 00:49:54,240
number of times in some ways I'm always

1206
00:49:58,130 --> 00:49:56,579
encouraging people to do like what you

1207
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:58,140
did is to kind of reach out and say Hey

1208
00:50:02,030 --> 00:50:00,480
you know I like this and I want to be

1209
00:50:04,190 --> 00:50:02,040
more involved I want to go interviews

1210
00:50:05,690 --> 00:50:04,200
you did even further I just see I tell

1211
00:50:07,730 --> 00:50:05,700
people set up an interview with someone

1212
00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:07,740
you want and we'll do it you took it one

1213
00:50:11,150 --> 00:50:09,359
step further and actually did a couple

1214
00:50:13,010 --> 00:50:11,160
of the news for us and they were great

1215
00:50:15,230 --> 00:50:13,020
they were really good I think there's a

1216
00:50:16,609 --> 00:50:15,240
lot of people out there that have the

1217
00:50:19,309 --> 00:50:16,619
ability if they're willing to put

1218
00:50:21,470 --> 00:50:19,319
themselves out there as definitely yeah

1219
00:50:23,930 --> 00:50:21,480
a lot of your skeptical viewers I'd love

1220
00:50:26,569 --> 00:50:23,940
to hear them Corral some people and uh

1221
00:50:29,329 --> 00:50:26,579
into an interview for you or or even

1222
00:50:32,030 --> 00:50:29,339
inquire themselves I agree okay well

1223
00:50:33,950 --> 00:50:32,040
Rich thanks again and uh we'll talk soon

1224
00:50:36,109 --> 00:50:33,960
thank you

1225
00:50:38,329 --> 00:50:36,119
thanks again to Dr Richard grago for

1226
00:50:41,089 --> 00:50:38,339
joining me today on skeptco the one

1227
00:50:43,309 --> 00:50:41,099
question I T up is in light of

1228
00:50:45,650 --> 00:50:43,319
everything that's going on and if I have

1229
00:50:48,049 --> 00:50:45,660
to break that down for you how are we to

1230
00:50:50,510 --> 00:50:48,059
understand folks in prominent positions

1231
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:50,520
who hold on to the biological robot

1232
00:50:56,690 --> 00:50:53,520
meaningless Universe meme is it as

1233
00:50:58,190 --> 00:50:56,700
simple as self-soothing could that be

1234
00:51:00,890 --> 00:50:58,200
the answer

1235
00:51:03,710 --> 00:51:00,900
as always let me know your thoughts let

1236
00:51:06,490 --> 00:51:03,720
me hear from you engage I'm here I'm not

1237
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:06,500
too busy I want to talk to you